eVTOL: Exploring Future Flight today

Voiceover: 00:03

This is CAA on Air.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 00:08

Hello and welcome to CAA on air, the podcast from the UK Civil Aviation Authority covering innovation in future technologies. I'm Danielle Anto-Kwakwah from the CAA communications team, and in this episode, we're looking at electric vertical takeover landing aircraft, which is more commonly known as eVTOL. Innovative aircraft like eVTOL could see people and goods moving between urban and regional areas in new and faster ways, and the CAA is working alongside industry to enable this next step in aviation. Today we're going to look at the ongoing work by eVTOL manufacturer Vertical Aerospace, the CAA’s role in supporting advanced air mobility and what's next. Joining us today, we have David King, Chief Engineer at Vertical Aerospace, and from the CAA, we have Technical Strategy Portfolio Manager Darryl Abelscroft. David, we'll start with you. Could you tell us a bit about Vertical Aerospace and what you're doing in the eVTOL space.

id King (Vertical Aerospace): 01:01

Hi Danielle, and first of all, thank you so much for inviting me to join your podcast today to talk about eVTOL innovations in the United Kingdom. At Vertical Aerospace, we're developing the VX four, which is an all electric four passenger, vertical takeoff and landing aircraft. The VX4 is designed for a variety of mission segments, but we're at an inflection point right now within the Air mobility industry, and this inflection point allows us to bring this technology, which is ready today, which incorporates electric propulsion within a vertical takeoff and landing aircraft, that will allow us to essentially unlock the third dimension and use point to point Air mobility in and around populated areas, and do it safely, quietly, cleanly and affordably, which is a step change from what exists today with helicopters.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 01:58

What are some of your most recent developments and key milestones that you've had so far at Vertical Aerospace?

id King (Vertical Aerospace): 02:04

So we look at this as a new technology for air mobility. And with a new technology, there are essentially four things that have to come together at the same time. The first is the development of the technology and the incorporation of that into an aircraft that can be certificated to the appropriate safety standards. So that's what we're working to right now. And the first step of that is technology demonstration. So we have a full scale prototype that's piloted that is flying right now at the Cotswolds airport, and it is going through what we call envelope expansion flight testing, which is proving that the aircraft can do exactly what it's supposed to do. Then we take that learning from that technology demonstration and incorporate it into a configuration that we're going to bring into production and that we will certify with the United Kingdom CAA, and then that's what we're going to deliver to our customers. And then that brings in that second element of introducing this new technology, and that's the regulatory framework, and that starts with the airworthiness standards to ensure the aircraft is safe. And to do that, it's challenging, and it takes a lot of time, because it's not just proving that the aircraft does what it's supposed to do, but it's proving that the aircraft will continue to do what it's supposed to do under any set of circumstances, expected or unexpected that sit within the realm of one in a billion, and that's the airliner safety standard that we're working with UK CAA to prove the safety of the VX four before we deliver it to the flying public.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 03:33

And in those developments, have you faced any challenges or opportunities that have come up in developing these eVTOL aircraft?

id King (Vertical Aerospace): 03:41

So the the technology itself, the building blocks are mature. Now. This company was founded in 16 and so we've invested heavily in the core enabling technologies, which is the electric propulsion. The electric propulsion is made up of lithium ion battery cells that are incorporated into battery packs that are developed to an airworthiness safety standard, then that interfaces with electric motors and propeller systems to provide both the vertical takeoff and landing thrust, and then also the thrust that's needed for the wing born cruise conditions. So that technology development has gone extremely well. Where we are right now is we are finishing the proof of that, taking those lessons and feeding it back into our analytical models to ensure that we have a shrink wrapped, optimized design that we deliver for certification. And then the next step is the challenge that's ahead of us now, which is the industrialization of the design, is to be able to set up the supply chains and the manufacturing centers and the relationships with both the regulators that are going to manage the way these aircraft are operated in service in the United Kingdom, as well as our operators, our customers who are going to be operating it initially. So that's the challenge that's ahead of us now, and we're really looking to the eVTOL delivery model that was. Introduced a month ago through the CAA, which lays out the framework to do that development of the infrastructure and the operational regulations.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 05:08

And David, how do you see eVTOL transforming UK aviation and urban mobility?

id King (Vertical Aerospace): 05:14

We see this as unlocking the third dimension, right? Nobody wants to get stuck in a traffic jam. I mean, that's one of the universal dislikes iif you talk to somebody at a cocktail party, and it's been a long time since mobility has advanced to the point where people can get from point A to point B faster than they could 50 or 60 years ago, which is interesting when you compare it to other technology developments over the last developments over the last 10, 20, 30 years, or it's just about everything else you do in a typical day is faster now than it was 20, 30, 40, years ago, except for mobility. So mobility has gotten much, much safer over the last 20, 30, 40, years. But now is the inflection point for us to bring this future of vertical lift capability. And I've been in the vertical lift business since the 1980s and I've seen the evolution of helicopters and turbine powered helicopters, turbine powered helicopters and turbine powered tilt rotors, and I've seen the roadblocks that they've run into in terms of allowing them to take off and really, really fulfill this demand, right? There's there's this demand to use the third dimension to get from point A to point B, to avoid the congestions in populated areas. But it hasn't been fulfilled because of the limitations of existing vertical takeoff and landing aircraft, and in one of the limitations is the safety standard, whereas the eVTOL technology and the regulatory environment that's been put in place in the United Kingdom allows us to develop the VX4 and certify it to airliner safety standards. And statistically, airliners is the safest way to travel today, and that is a key enabler. Then the ability to do this cleanly with all electric, emission free, and to do it affordably, that will unlock this ability to use the third dimension, or urban air mobility. I do think that the advanced air mobility, when you look at it from the value that it provides to the public, one of the keys is to be able to introduce it safely, as I mentioned, but also to do it at a price point that makes it affordable to the masses. So this technology is not designed just for the wealthy, to be able to get from point A to point B faster than everybody else. This is there to be able to utilize that third dimension to be able to remove congestion in populated areas for the public. And the key there is the technology of the electric propulsion that drives down the maintenance costs relative to existing helicopters, which then rolls back into the price per seat mile, which makes it affordable and at a similar price point to a ground taxi today.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 08:06

Thank you very much, David. I'm going to move it over to you. Darryl, so what is the CAA’s Advanced Air Mobility team focused on, and what do we actually need to approve or develop new rules on?

Darryl Abelscroft (UK CAA): 08:18

Thanks, Danielle, and thanks for having me today on this podcast, great to be here with David and Vertical. First of all, it's probably important to say what my team so I oversee the AAM eVTOL team in the CAA, say what my team aren't doing, and that's working on certification of Vertical’s VX4, or providing the flight testing kind of permissions. There's a different team within the CAA Design and Certification team who have been providing those permissions to enable Vertical to do their flight testing and will work with Vertical on their on their certification. Really important we're keeping that certification work separate, but my team are really looking at what the regulatory framework as a whole looks like to enable these new eVTOL aircraft in the UK, and we're doing that in conjunction with UK Government and Department of Transport. Their Future Flight program has a very clear goal that Government would like to see commercial eVTOL operations in the UK from 28 and the CAA, my team, are playing our part in helping them deliver that. So that's encapsulated most recently in the eVTOL delivery model that David just mentioned, which sets out our vision for the regulatory framework and how we intend to implement it. It covers the work across the CAA on eVTOL so really covers a lot of different teams and areas, from flight operations, pilot licensing, how we will kind of continue to make sure these aircraft are airworthy after they're certificated. Standards for aerodromes that will require to allow these aircraft to fly in and out, How we will integrate them within airspace and any security requirements we will need for them. So it's a real cross CAA effort to enable the registry framework. This is kind of clearly part of the CAA’s mission to protect people and enable aerospace. And those aren't either or they're both. Clearly we want to allow and enable safe operations of EVTOL in the UK, and we'll be publishing in the next month or two, our kind of policy consultation, which takes all the work that's in the delivery model and goes a level deeper and so that stakeholders can really understand the emerging policy positions that will allow these aircraft to fly safely.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 10:21

And in doing that, how is the CAA engaging with innovators like Vertical Aerospace?

Darryl Abelscroft (UK CAA): 10:27

So one of our principles that the eVTOL delivery model sets out is engaging openly with industry. It's a kind of key part of making sure we get safe regulations is that we're working openly on the regulatory framework and sharing as far as possible, getting that feedback about what works, what doesn't work, what might not be safe, so we can form the right rules to deliver that commercial air transport level of safety. So we're working with existing industry groups such as the ADS advanced air mobility special interest group. We've established an eVTOL Safety Leadership Group to specifically work with stakeholders on safety related eVTOL issues, and for some particular technical issues that we're working through, we've established some technical working groups. We’ve got a group on flight operations, a group on licensing, and a group on aerodromes, each of those with technical experts from across the sector to work with our own experts in the CAA to develop the right rules. All the policies ultimately will go through public consultation, so a clear opportunity for innovators and wider stakeholders to engage with us and help us get the right regulatory approach.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 11:35

Darryl, could you give us an overview of the National Aviation Authority roadmap for advanced Air mobility?

Darryl Abelscroft (UK CAA): 11:39

Yeah, absolutely. So really important document, actually, that we published jointly through the National Aviation Authority network, which made up of the FAA, CASA in Australia, Transport Canada and the New Zealand CAA too. As a group which is overseen by the CAA Chair, Sir Stephen Hillier, as a group, we’ve realized that for most types of aircraft, historically, we've waited till they've started flying. And then we thought about how we harmonize the rule sets with eVTOL, with advanced air mobility we wanted to get ahead of that and really support the nascent sector start now on that harmonization journey. So we're not all continually develop ever differing rule sets. So the roadmap we published in June 25 really sets out that long term goal of having a universal, harmonized regulatory system globally, focusing to start with on certification standards. So how we can get slightly different certification approaches across the different National Aviation Authorities into a kind of common goal. And that's just the beginning. Ultimately, we would like a common rule set across other areas, operations, aerodrome requirements, etc, and we'll work with the NAA network and with ICAO to ultimately develop that over time. So really important first step, the long term aspirations, some key milestones that we'll be working on to help us deliver that harmonized certification standard, but really important to say that the UK's approach remains for certification, a UK's version of SeVTOL, which we have adopted from EASA and published a second edition of earlier this year.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 13:13

And how is the CAA balancing innovation with safety and regulation?

Darryl Abelscroft (UK CAA): 13:18

Good question. For me it's not about balance. We need to do innovation and we need safety. Our mission is protecting people and enabling aerospace, not either or. I don't think there's a compromise there. Safety is non negotiable. Innovation and safety can coexist, and a really important part of our eVTOL delivery model was that we need to develop safe, proportionate solutions. So for me, it's about understanding the risk and finding the right regulatory solutions that, yes, deliver safety, but also in a way that enables aerospace to flourish.

id King (Vertical Aerospace): 13:50

Yeah, I would like to just just comment on what Darryl said, which is a great point to your question about the balance between innovation and safety. Another way to look at that is the innovation is essentially an enabler for raising the safety bar. So just today, go take a look at the accident records of helicopters across the globe. Now, on average, there are about five hundred helicopter accidents per year, and about one hundred of those are fatal. And you could pull up what the causal chain are of each of those accidents, and then when you dig down and say, Okay, what could have been done in terms of the technology embedded into the aircraft and the aircraft operations to mitigate that cause of that accident, and today's technology, with eVTOL, is an innovation that can mitigate hazards that have happened in the past. So you look at the VX4, the VX4 has eight separate independent lift thrust units. So it's eight separate batteries with eight separate high voltage power busses that drive eight separate motors. Each of those motors has redundant inverter lanes to generate electromagnetic torque that drives eight separate propellers. So you look at the level of fault tolerance that you get with eight versus what you have in a conventional helicopter, one main rotor, often one turbine engine, one main rotor gearbox and a tail rotor, which could also cause a catastrophe. So the level of redundancy that comes in with the innovation enables this higher safety level. It also enables these computer driven controls, which is what we call simplified vehicle operation. So again, you look at accident records today, 90% of helicopter accidents are related to human factors, and the ability to simplify the vehicle operations from the pilot's perspective, can reduce the probability of those types of accidents and allow the innovation to raise the bar on safety. And we think that's what the public needs, and that's what the public deserves, and that's one of the limitations right now for helicopters operating in and around populated areas is the safety record and the safety standard, if you bring that up to an airliner level, that will not only drive the accident record down to our target zero, but it will also drive up that public acceptance and the public belief in this technology

Darryl Abelscroft (UK CAA): 16:23

Completely echo and agree with what David's just said there, and reflecting back to your question on the NAA road map for AAM certification harmonization, that document that was published included six key principles that the NAA will look to deliver around. And two of those, I think, are really important in that context that David just mentioned. One is safety and innovation, so that we are maintaining the highest safety standards whilst enabling that technology innovation, adopting that risk based, performance orientated approach. And the second is incremental approach. Absolutely key here we at the CAA and through the eVTOL delivery model, really set out that kind of phased approach we're adopting, often called crawl, walk, run. We are enabling, we are learning, and then we're going to scale, scale the ambition as we as we go forward. Yeah, I completely, completely echo those points. And the NAA networks roadmap gives us a framework through which we can deliver the safety and innovation aspects that we need.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 17:22

Thank you. So how has the work between Vertical Aerospace and the CAA evolved?

id King (Vertical Aerospace): 17:28

The model that's in place within the United Kingdom allows us to work side by side between the OEM, the manufacturer, the designer of the aircraft, with the regulator, while we are doing the flight test program of our technology demonstrator. Some of my colleagues and friends back in the United States look at that and they say, Wow, that's a pretty big burden that you have where you have to essentially go through a mini certification process, a requirements based compliance process, before you start flight testing. But we don't look at it as a burden. We look at it as a way to develop this relationship, because the relationship between the regulator and the designer, the applicant for a new type design to be certified, that's the essential ingredient that you need to be able to introduce a new type of aircraft. Especially something that's innovative and new and novel, and do it safely. You have to have that trust. You have to have that communication channel. And then it's not just the iterations that we need to do on the design as we do the testing, but we also have to do the iterations on the various test methods and the certification methods to make sure that we are capturing all the different corners of this complex, highly integrated aircraft and systems, to make sure that we’ve found those one in a billion vulnerabilities. Now that's the hard part. Designing it, building it, flying it, proving it does what it's supposed to do is the easy part. The hard part is proving that it continues to do what it's supposed to do under any possible set of circumstances, and you have to go through that iteration with the regulator. So we've been working side by side on the permit to fly process for the flight test aircraft and then the learnings during the flight test program, so that we all are on this journey together. And you can probably tell from my accent. I'm not a native from from Great Britain. About three years ago, I packed up and moved across the ocean, and you know, I didn't do it just for the fish and chips, although I do love the fish and chips. This here, from my perspective, is the perfect ecosystem for developing and introducing the EVTOL technology, this side by side relationship with the regulators, starting with the flight test program, as well as the model that's been put in place through the CAA, which has adopted what's proven at EASA, at the European Aviation Safety Agency, to be able to use that and develop this trust by having a design organization and a production organization that gets approved in terms of the process and the capabilities and the people, and then the CAA can become that oversight body, as opposed to having to get into every detail. But we develop that trust through the process and that ecosystem, and then the ecosystem with the talent. And, you know, being an American, we've, we've always had this great reverence for the aviation heritage in Great Britain, and in particular right here in Bristol, right right here in Bristol, the proud aviation heritage and that that drives this, this enthusiasm and this pedigree and the talent base and the supply chain base. It really is a terrific ecosystem, from my perspective, for the future of vertical lift.

Darryl Abelscroft (UK CAA): 20:47

Yeah, from, from my perspective in the CAA, I think, like any relationship, you go through stages, right of storming, forming, norming is the phrase and building that trust that you just mentioned, David, takes time really understanding both sides the needs of either organization. I'm not involved, as I said, my team are not involved in certification and providing permits to VerticalAerospace, but everything I hear from that team is that that relationship is just improving day by day, week by week, through that trust and through that kind of mutual understanding. So we're now working really harmoniously to deliver the regulator's role, which is kind of scrutinize and provide permissions when we're confident that the operations are safe. We also work closely with Vertical on the non certification issues, and the relationship there has always been very open, transparent, and as I said earlier, we're working with a number of different aerospace companies. Vertical’s got a particular role given their presence in the UK, but we're working across the sector to develop the regulatory framework that works for all, mostly the UK public, and provides them the safe the knowledge that the aircraft they'll step on one day will be safe.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 21:54

This might be a question more pointed at David, but what are the next steps for certification, integration and public engagement.

id King (Vertical Aerospace): 22:03

Right now, our company is focused on two major streams. The first stream is our full scale piloted prototype to complete its envelope expansion testing. And what's left is what we call the transition regime. We did our first three phases of flight testing, where we started with the thrust board regime, the vertical take-off and landing and the low speed operations in and around the runway. And then the second phase was to do expand the speed and the low speed regime. And the third phase was to take off and land on a runway using conventional procedures, and expand the high speed flying envelope up and away. And that was the capability that we used when we moved our aircraft two from our flight test centre at the Cotswolds airport in Kemble to Fairford for the Royal International Air Tattoo this summer, which was really an exciting event to participate in. And now the next phase is what we call phase four, which is transition, which is to be able to take off and land vertically, and then transition to the wing born and cruise around at altitude, at cruise speeds, high speed, at a very energy efficient condition, and then come back and transition to a vertical landing. So that's the phase we're demonstrating right now. And in parallel, we have our certification version, which has taken the learning from flight test and the optimization to package it into a design that meets the certification standards, and also can be industrialized for a ramp up of our production and delivery to our customers across the globe, but starting right here in the United Kingdom. So that step is what we are going through now is, is we've started the production of our first seven we call pre production aircraft, PP1 through PP7. We've engaged with with our supply chain, and we've got the tooling and the long lead items in work. Then that next phase would be with those seven aircraft go through a very, very rigorous certification program to show that we meet these rigorous safety standards, so that in '28 we can receive a type certificate for the VX4 and enter service with our launch customers here in the United Kingdom. That entry into service is going to leverage exactly what Darryl and the team laid out for the eVTOL delivery model, where we can start with this crawl, walk, run model, you can start with the infrastructure that exists today with a few specific verti ports that are being developed right now and then expand the operations as the density of the operations increases.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 24:30

Thank you. What should listeners watch for in the coming months in the advanced air mobility space?

Darryl Abelscroft (UK CAA): 24:37

Well, first of all, I'd encourage listeners to go and download our eVTOL delivery model. We talked about it a lot David and I today, CAP 3-1-6-9, is the cap number on the CAA website. David just mentioned the crawl walk, run philosophy. And that document really sets out that crawl work run in three phases, what we call flying now, so that the ability for companies such as Vertical Aerospace to fly right now in the UK through our permit to fly regime under e-conditions, we've seen aircraft fly, Vertical have done a number of flights now. We've permitted Beta to fly across the UK over recent months, in a pre certification aircraft. It's possible through in the crawl stage of that crawl, walk, run, to do some flying recertification. In the walk section, I guess the walk analogy is our flying, what we call flying tomorrow, really the work we need to do to allow those initial commercial operations by '28 through a certified aircraft, and all the kind of the rule changes, the regulatory changes that we need to work with UK Government on to make that a reality. And then finally, the run phase, what we call flying in future, all the things we're going to need to deliver, probably post '30 to enable developments like how we cater for lots of high traffic, advanced air mobility eVTOL aircraft, things like autonomy and kind of increased use of automation, the things that we’ll really need to enable the aircraft to scale once those initial commercial operations are underway. So really encourage our listeners to download the delivery model and then, as I said earlier, we're hoping by the end of '25 to have our detailed policy consultation published that will take stakeholders through the various policy and regulatory changes we wish to make across the regulatory framework. Starting, our real kind of ethos, is starting with what works already. We've got a trusted, well established, safe regulatory framework for aviation in the UK. We're not trying to create anything new here, adapting what we have already to cater for eVTOL so that we can build on what works. So look out for that consultation, hopefully in the next couple of months.

id King (Vertical Aerospace): 26:46

In terms of the public acceptance, what I find fun is I live in Bristol, down by the wharf, and you know, people say, hey, as an American, what are you doing here in Bristol? And I tell them, we'll work for vertical, or we're developing an all electric flying taxi. And it's, it's just fun to hear the questions that come back and the excitement from the public and one of the questions that I hear, and it's interesting how you know Darryl talked about this in the in the delivery model, is people ask you say, Hey, what are gonna be the qualifications of a pilot to be able to fly an air taxi? And in the model that Darryl's team has laid out, you know, shows again this progression where you start with a conservative approach, you start with commercially rated professional pilots that get a rigorous type rating in the VX4, and then that can expand over over time to be able to say, hey, our number one priority is safety. But then as the technology gets proven and as the infrastructure matures, it gives the ability to be able to expand the ability to get pilots into the pipeline faster, expand the capability to be able to increase the density of transporting people using the third dimension. So it is exciting when you present that as a future. And you know, the '30s is when this is going to take off this. So this is when the run, right? The run happens in the '30s and you know, it's '25 now almost the end of '25 so that run phase is going to be exciting. I'm just, I'm just glad I'm only 29 years old, because it's got a bright future.

Darryl Abelscroft (UK CAA): 28:16

You say that, those listeners who've heard me speak at various conferences on eVTOL know that I normally put up a picture of my young children, because it's for those guys who hopefully will utilize these new types of aircraft and not even realize how much kind of effort and work has gone in, from from industry, from government, from regulators, to enable this to happen. Really, really hoping that when they get older, this sort of technology will be part of their everyday lives.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 28:47

Thank you very much. So where can listeners learn more about EVTOL and advanced air mobility developments?

Darryl Abelscroft (UK CAA): 28:55

Through the CAA website, we have an advanced air mobility page that we update with all the kind of regulatory updates on eVTOL, normally the best place, from the CAA perspective, David for kind of industry updates. Is there a place that you kind of tend to go to get your latest news, what's going on across the sector?

id King (Vertical Aerospace): 29:13

So our communications team is doing, in my opinion, a really good job of using all the communications channels available to get the word out, because, you know, the four things that have to come together, one of them is the public acceptance. And to get the public acceptance, you have to get the message out, and that messaging covers all types of channels, including this podcast right here. So thank you again for the opportunity to explain what we're doing here. You can go find the information in different types of manners, and I still encourage people to get together as a community, because the collective wisdom is what we need to make the best decisions now. We know there's going to be an evolution as the operations start ramping up and as the technology matures, but we want to bring in all those perspectives right now. So that we can capture them and get them captured for the entry into service.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 30:03

And following on from that point, David on getting industry involved. How can industry stakeholders get involved and stay informed?

id King (Vertical Aerospace): 30:10

So the various industry committees, I suggest and encourage people to look for the conferences that are scheduled. There are several in the United Kingdom. The Royal Aeronautical Society has one next month where we're going to sit down and talk in London at their London headquarters, to talk about the different types of infrastructure and the initial operations, what that infrastructure should be designed to. So that's just one opportunity coming up in four weeks. And you know, every month there will be an opportunity for the community to come together across the globe.

Darryl Abelscroft (UK CAA): 30:40

In terms of conferences and events that the listeners might want to keep an eye out for. And I'm not endorsing any of these in particular, but there's usually an annual air taxi Congress event. This year, it's in London. I think the Dubai air show in November will have a big focus on advanced air mobility and farmer International Air Show next summer will also probably heavily feature some of the eVTOL aircraft and eVTOL companies.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 31:04

Thank you. And just final thoughts from the both of you on future flight, and including the impact and benefit to listeners today.

Darryl Abelscroft (UK CAA): 31:12

I think I just mentioned it. But my personal hope, and I think taking my CAA hat off here, my personal hope for my kids, is that this is a becomes a safe, sustainable form of transport that they will just use in the same way as we hop on an Uber in the next 20 years. That requires hard work today and in order to prove that safety and to support the industry to be able to test and scale and develop commercial operations.

David King (Vertical Aerospace)

And I'm really looking forward to the next 12 months, when we're going to have the opportunity to use the VX4 prototypes to do demonstrations. And I think the demonstrations will help us learn going point to point, vertaport, to vertaport, but it's also going to help get the awareness out, because the best way to become aware is to see it with your own two eyes. And it never gets old. I'll tell you I love every visit I have to our flight test centre, and every time I watch the VX4 fly. One last item, which is just a little bit of a teaser for everybody to keep their eyes out, for an unveiling of our configuration that we're going to bring into production. And you can look out the window right now and see our full scale mock up of our existing prototype. And you know what jumps out at you is the cabin. And when I came over for the first time and I said, this really is a comfortable cabin, and people said, yeah, it was modelled after a London black taxi. And you just think about the experience of sitting in a London black taxi, where you have the great visibility, the great roominess, the club seating. So that's the model it was based off of but what it allows is it allows the versatility and the growth. So in the future, it can even have more seats, or it's got enough room to have an emergency medical application litter in there. And then it's also sized so that it has the versatility to have range extension, for example, putting a turbo generator in the baggage Bay, and be able to fly city to city, instead of just in and around populated areas, to be able to charge the batteries with a fuel tank on board. And that opens up all kinds of applications for logistics. That also opens up all kinds of applications for the Government right? Vertical take off, vertical landing. It could even be ship to shore, ship to ship, to carry logistics and do it over long ranges. So there's a whole lot of other applications that are going to be on the heels of the advanced air mobility. So in that run phase that Darryl was talking about, it's going to be over multiple different applications.

Darryl Abelscroft (UK CAA): 33:34

And if I could evolve that a little bit, my team sits within what we call future safety and innovation within CAA, which looks after a number of different innovation technologies approaches across aviation and some of the teams I'm work I'm involved in yes eVTOL, also our work on the hydrogen challenge, also our kind of emerging work on AI and how how AI might be integrated into aviation. Lots of work on unmanned aviation systems, or drones, as they're usually called. And I think we're increasingly seeing all of those different aspects which are quite separate at the moment coming together. So in 20 years, you’ll probably see an autonomous EVTOL platform run off hydrogen. So yeah, seeing the amalgamation of these systems into a kind of very sustainable, very safe platform that's able to carry passengers or cargo, is one eventuality. So yeah, exciting times to be working in this space, and really excited to see how our industry continues to evolve to make aviation safer, more sustainable and contribute to alleviating that congestion problem that you identified at the start.

nielle Anto-Kwakwah (UK CAA): 34:43

Very exciting times ahead indeed. Well, that's it for this episode. Thanks again to David at Vertical Aerospace and Darryl from the UK CAA for joining us today. CAA On Air has more innovation podcasts available for you to catch up with. If there's anything else you'd like us to cover on this podcast, feel free to send us a message at onair@caa.co.uk. Thank you for listening, and remember to follow us in all the places you normally get your podcasts, and we'll see you next time.

Voiceover: 35:13

Thanks for listening. This is CAA On Air.